Ben Burge & Matt Miller of Rupp Pfalzgraf LLC

welcome everyone to year three of Rupp Pfalzgraf's Empire State Entrepreneurs and New York Business Law podcast, a really fun and informative forum for us to showcase clients, strategic partners, and community leaders to talk about relevant issues for entrepreneurs and business owners throughout New York.
Now, by now, I'm sure you know my name is David Pfalzgraf, and I'm very fortunate to be the managing partner at Rupp Pfalzgraf, a full-service law firm headquartered right here in downtown Buffalo, and we're, um, really, really lucky, um, to be hosting this, uh, podcast in this super cool sto- studio at Incept.
I wanna thank, as always, Mike Davern and Erik, uh, for allowing us to host our podcast in their studio, and we've really developed a, uh, a meaningful strategic partnership with Incept. They're helping us with a ton of things, um, at the firm these days, and they're really doing a bang-up job. So thanks, Mike and Eric, for all that you continue to do to support our law firm.[00:01:00]
Really excited today to host a couple of, uh, dear friends and, and partners of mine in the law firm, Matt Miller and Ben Burge. Um, they're here today not to talk about law. Don't worry, we're not gonna get too deep into M&A stuff and labor and employment stuff. We're happy to do that anytime for you if you need it.
Uh, but today we're gonna focus more on, uh, artificial intelligence and the impact of AI on our business and our profession and, and some ways maybe in which you, uh, as an entrepreneur or business owner can rethink, uh, the way you're utilizing or leveraging AI. So we'll get, um, fully immersed in AI in a minute, but before I do so, wanted to welcome Matt, welcome Ben.
Thanks, guys, for being here today. Thanks, David. Thanks for having me. Appreciate it. Uh, and I think it might be helpful to our listeners, um, if, if each of you just take a minute to talk about your backgrounds a little bit and, and what's led you to your current roles at the firm today. So Matt, maybe we'll start with you.
Ben Burge & Matt Miller: [00:02:00] Sure. Sure. Thanks, David. Um, well, born and raised right here in Western New York, uh, in the Southtowns. Um, and, uh, after college, uh, undergrad, I went into the real world for a little while. I worked a real job, so by the time I decided it was, uh, the career path of, of choice was to be a lawyer, um, I had already had some real-life experience in the working world and was a little older than my classmates.
Um, I did a variety of things during law school. Uh, during my summers, did the, the big firm, uh, job. I worked in a, a, a public sector job as well, both in Boston, Massachusetts. Um, went to law school in Pennsylvania. And although I had different aspirations to go to a bigger city, um, in the Mid-Atlantic after law school, I ultimately, you know, the, the gravitational pull back to Western New York- Hundred percent.
I get that ... I, I, I couldn't, uh, I couldn't fend it off. So I landed back here and, and from day one have Kind of grew up being a, a complex business litigator. Um, [00:03:00] started my career at a, a smaller firm before joining Rupp Volz Graf about 15 years ago, and, uh, and, and took on that role again. And over time just kind of grew and my practice evolved into, uh, what it is now, which is the, uh, practice area leader of the labor and employment group.
And it... And during that time, not only growing up as a person, as a business person, but also as, you know, kind of a strategic thought leader, figuring out not only how a, a law firm runs, but, uh, but how a business runs and all that comes with that. So, um, it's been a great journey and, and I'm proud to be where I am.
1535_Rupp_ESEPodcast_MattandBen_DaveCam_Synched: That's awesome. How about you, Ben? Remind me again, what, what landed you here? Sure. I, I was hit by a different gravity than Matt. Uh, I grew up in Cleveland, Ohio- Oh, God. ... so I'm a proud Brown- Browns fan, um, which is painful in its own right. Um, but you know, when I was 18 I moved to New York City, because when you're 18 what's better than living in New York?
Ben Burge & Matt Miller: Uh, went to undergrad there, met a Buffalo girl who eventually convinced me to come back here. Went to law school, practiced for a couple years in New York. And my first job wasn't glamorous, so I've seen kind of the good, bad, and ugly of law from time to time. But [00:04:00] moved back to Buffalo, um, after I woke up on the fifth floor of my walk-up wondering why I was still in New York City-
paying through the bills. Sorry, paying through the nose for everything with bills. Um, but been at the firm for 10, 11 years now, helping guys and girls buy and sell businesses, helping them run their businesses. And I really enjoy it because I get to pretend to be, you know, a business owner- Um, and use those skills more than being a lawyer.
1535_Rupp_ESEPodcast_MattandBen_DaveCam_Synched: Being a lawyer is great. Um, trust me, I have printouts here. We can talk about the law for days and days and days and all the nuances, especially as it relates to AI. But I like to v-view myself as a business owner, so a lot of my work now is kind of fractional general counsel type work, and I, I just really enjoy that because it certainly puts a different flavor and a different lens on how a lot of lawyers look at things, and I, I find that enjoyable on a day-to-day basis.
And, and we know, um, our topic, our key topic today, this, this topic of artificial intelligence is now sort of old news in terms of it being a disruptor, uh, not only in the legal profession but [00:05:00] I think, uh, you know, for any business today. Um, but I- I- I'm curious as to both of your perspectives, and maybe we'll start with Ben.
Ben Burge & Matt Miller: But t-tell me about sort of, sorta early use of AI or
1535_Rupp_ESEPodcast_MattandBen_DaveCam_Synched: how,
Ben Burge & Matt Miller: um, and when you knew, Ben,
1535_Rupp_ESEPodcast_MattandBen_DaveCam_Synched: that
Ben Burge & Matt Miller: it could be utilized or leveraged for M&A purposes or for... You know, I know
1535_Rupp_ESEPodcast_MattandBen_DaveCam_Synched: Ben
Ben Burge & Matt Miller: is also the f-firm's general counsel, so he's, he's, uh, you know, fully immersed and in tune with issues that we face as a business like many of our entrepreneur listeners.
1535_Rupp_ESEPodcast_MattandBen_DaveCam_Synched: And so h-how, how do you get out ahead of it, Ben, or how, how did you know that this was gonna be something that, that then required the firm to, to change and change
pretty
quick and whether it was AI task force or AI practice groups or, or policies maybe, um, and I'm sure Matt can talk about a million different AI, uh, use-usage and, um, related policies.
But Ben, h- like, give me the early, uh- Sure ... days of AI in, in your mind, and when [00:06:00] you first knew that this was gonna be something that w- needed to be embraced and not sort of resisted.
I, I'd
Ben Burge & Matt Miller: love to say it
1535_Rupp_ESEPodcast_MattandBen_DaveCam_Synched: was a thoughtful decision but I, I
stumbled into it, candidly. And give credit where credit's due.
Tony Rupp, you know,
of
Rupp Folzgraph
is,
is a preeminent thought leader in AI, and he's been beating the drum for a long time, and I eventually, you know, stumbled into it, maybe an early adopter in the firm, but certainly wasn't in the, the very vanguard of it. But this, this one story I think is really
memorable
to me.
I was
helping
a
physician practice with an ugly breakup, um, from another
physician
group, and there were questions, and some of the contracts were messy, and I
I
was out for a
a
walk one morning because it was
kind of the later stages
of COVID, and you couldn't be in the gym or be too close to people. So I
I
had ChatGPT on my phone, and I...
There was this deep research button that I'd never heard of before, and I, I think I probably hit it by accident. But there, there was a question of, okay, in, in my particular fact pattern, who owns the business records produced by a physician? Is it the physician practice, the physician who generates the records, the patient themselves?
That's a great [00:07:00] question. I have no idea. Still probably don't. Um, but I accidentally hit the deep research button, and I went on this
walk,
and I came back, and all of a sudden, I had a 25-page single-spaced memo written by AI with citations, with Work product, right? Incredible. And so I, I looked at this and said, "Holy cow, this is, this is revolutionary."
Obviously, I didn't know about hallucinations at the time. In, in hindsight, I wish I probably would've fact-checked some of those citations, but it, it just really took the blinders off from me of saying, "Hey, this is, this is a massive tool here." I could have generated this, this memo that it wrote for me, but it would've taken me and maybe a couple of younger associates a few days, if not more, and it did it in the 20 minutes I was out for- Incredible
a walk around the block. And that's four years ago, or three or four years ago. That was three, three or four years ago, right? And it's only accelerated from now, and I'm still probably a brute force user. I, I use a couple of different softwares now, and I still, you know, put a paragraph into ChatGPT or Claude and say, "Hey, let's try refining this paragraph to address," you know, buy side or sell side, depending where you are in a [00:08:00] transaction, or, "What about this particular angle of it?"
Um, so I'm still not necessarily a refined user with all sorts of, um- Back-end APIs and those things, you know, people throw around, and I nod knowingly, not really sure what they're talking about. Um, but that was kind of my first introduction to AI, and it just
really showed
me how powerful a tool
it
can be,
and now
I'm using it half the day every day, and I try to make sure all the associates and other partners in our group are using it at least that much
because
it is a fantastic tool.
It's not gonna replace lawyers. Um-
Thank God. ... it's
not gonna r- not...
Right.
At least not short term, right? At least not in my lifetime probably. It's never gonna replace having some independent judgment and the ability to look at something, but it's certainly gonna speed up
the
drafting time. It's certainly gonna be a very useful tool, and I think that's the, the main
element
that
we
can lean on now.
Whether you're a lawyer, whether you're a business owner, whatever it is, is saying, "Okay, there's this new tool out there. Are you using it, and if not, why not?"
How
about
you, Matt?
Give us a little, like, early perspective on, on AI and, [00:09:00] and your embracing it. Uh, how and when and why, and what, what impact did it have early on?
Ben Burge & Matt Miller: Yeah, I think it goes back to something that Ben said, too. You know, I was sitting in one of those, um, five-minute intentional conversations with Tony Rupp in his office that quickly became
1535_Rupp_ESEPodcast_MattandBen_DaveCam_Synched: an
Ben Burge & Matt Miller: hour.
1535_Rupp_ESEPodcast_MattandBen_DaveCam_Synched: And, um,
Ben Burge & Matt Miller: to his credit, you know, he, he started talking
1535_Rupp_ESEPodcast_MattandBen_DaveCam_Synched: about AI,
And you can tell when Tony talks
about
something, the passion with which
he
speaks, that it's that important
or that...
it's that gravitating.
It might be revolutionary. Um, and so I immediately... Like, it caught my attention. I paid attention for the full hour, and I went back and started playing around with some
stuff,
And, um, right
away
I could see, you know, even in that early stage, how this could potentially just make my job easier. Um, not replace me, not, not take over judgment and make decisions, um, but make things more efficient, uh, lead me in the right direction when there's a difficult, uh, fact pattern or legal question.
Um, and, and I... It just evolved over time. And in that short period of time from that conversation, [00:10:00] um, what's transpired in the marketplace and, and even at our firm is really incredible.
You,
you could just look at what h- has come out from the two of the major players in the last few weeks with their newest models.
I mean,
they're
literally writing themselves, testing themselves. Um, and so how do we, how did we take that and, and intentionally decide that this is something that we as a firm and as a business need to pay attention to and need to take control over because it's not going away, right? I,
I
remember the conversation with Tony.
He said it to all of us, I think, over time where, um, you know, he, he likens it back to, like, the, the invent of the- Mm ... of the BlackBerry phone, right? If you don't get on board and become invested and intentionally make strategic decisions with something that that's, that is that revolutionary, you're already way behind.
And so, um, that's what, uh, that's what kinda drew me to it right away. Like, all right, well, we gotta get on board with this. We gotta understand what it means. We gotta make sure our people understand what's out there, how it can be useful to them, the dangers and pitfalls to be aware of. [00:11:00] Um, and that way we can position our, our firm and hopefully our clients, if we're using it right, to, to be the best firm possible in the future.
And so, um, it's really transformed my day- day-to-day life, not only my law practice, but my day-to-day life and, and I continue to see that that's only gonna keep going, you know, as we go on. Let's, let's talk for a minute, uh, about nuts and bolts. Both Matt and Ben serve on the firm's AI
task
force and our newly created AI practice group.
Matt, maybe I'll start with you. From a, from a policy perspective or from a implementation perspective, what...
h- how
can we help our, our business owner clients, uh, or, or the entrepreneur listener on this podcast? What, what should that, um, executive be thinking about as he or she is running a company that, um, undoubtedly has, um, individuals who are utilizing AI for the company's benefit?
But how, how have, how has our little task force, how [00:12:00] has our practice group, um, started to think about practical advice that be, can be given to a
business
owner client for, for AI usage? Yeah, there's, um... It's a multi-pronged approach in my mind. Um, compliance is the big word, right? We w- everyone wants to be compliant with whatever rules, regulations, statutes apply to your particular industry or business.
And so, um, number one is partnering with the right lawyer, right, uh, professionals to
make
sure, um, that you are checking all those boxes and staying compliant, staying ethical, and making responsible choices. But beyond that, um, once you have decisions made at the top level, the highest of an organization, um, one of the biggest things in my mind is identify where your best people are doing, like, the lowest level work.
Where, like, if you wanna create return on investment, identify where those opportunities are, where you can, you can automate, you can use AI to automate You know, mindless tasks that your, your [00:13:00] normally really productive people are still
doing,
um, and they probably shouldn't be. So you can create value almost instantaneously if you're making intentional strategic decisions, you're identifying where those opportunities are, and then making choices with the information you have at hand and the tools that you have that might best perform according to those, uh, opportunities so you can, you can materialize those, you can capitalize on them.
Um, that's one of the biggest things. And then, you know, once you identify what those are, you gotta get adoption from your workforce if... a- and across the board, right? It's not just select people,
I
don't think, in my mind, which means you have to understand the tools themselves. What are their capabilities?
What are their pitfalls? Um, then you have to be able to explain what those tools are to your people. You gotta train them,
you gotta educate
them, and only once you understand and you can educate and train your people are you
ever gonna
get them to adopt it and be
able
to use it, use it efficiently and effectively the
way
it's designed to do.[00:14:00]
I,
I
like,
uh, you know, you said it, it's gotta
be
done as part of a strategy- Yeah ... so it's not just, like, an IT tool or a shiny internal program that can be used. I mean, y-
y-you...
both of you guys
think,
and
maybe
Ben you can speak
to
this, but, but AI, it- it's gotta be part of a s-
a
strategic plan for a business or a company.
A- absolutely. I, I give a couple of client examples, and I, I tell them, "Walk the same journey Ruff Pfallegraft walked," but, you know, just in our footsteps of we were a little bit of early adopter in the vanguard of, of using AI, and in the very beginning we probably didn't
have
Ben Burge & Matt Miller: our arms wrapped around which AIs
1535_Rupp_ESEPodcast_MattandBen_DaveCam_Synched: we're
using, who's using which version, how much are they using and all those things.
So, you know, it was IT just because they did it, but we conducted an internal survey of just trying to figure out what our users were using, and then had, you know, people that actually were in the know. So again, the Tony Rups, the IT department say, "Okay, let's develop a strategy now that we have that data.
Which versions are our people using? Um, you know,
which
of these are best [00:15:00] for our particular application?" You know, you want a law firm, so maybe a, a version that's better at drafting versus, you know, if you're, if you're making widgets, whatever a widget factory makes, which tools might be better for you, and having an,
a, an,
an intentional strategy along those lines.
And then, you know, the other thing being lawyers, we're always risk adverse, right? People are always a little bit afraid. So then ex- taking that,
uh, s- uh, excuse
me. Let me rephrase that to, to our guys on the outside. Taking the results of that survey and saying, "Okay, how do we actually employ this, employ this correctly?"
Um, you know, d- do we need to have any confidentiality provisions? Do we need maybe an enterprise account with that provider so if we do have client data, whether you're a physician practice, again, u- using personal health identifying-- personal health information, whether you're a law firm with personal identifying information or whatever it might be, you know, can you have a more secure account so some of those concerns are being addressed?
And, you know, th- again, that's the journey even our firm took. So we now have enterprise [00:16:00] accounts with multiple providers that gives us the exact same level of security and confidentiality that our, our standard document management software has.
And
so I feel like that
knowledge,
uh, will
help
a lot of clients have a better understanding and comfort level with using these tools, and then saying, "Okay, now that I'm set up, how do I actually start employing them?"
Ben Burge & Matt Miller: And that's the exciting
1535_Rupp_ESEPodcast_MattandBen_DaveCam_Synched: part
of this, is, you know, like the foundation, the, the strategy part of saying, "Okay, how do we build a baseline here?" And then going from there. That requires a little bit of thoughtful thought from the actual users. And, and on,
on
that note, Ben, I know, you know, it's not just a bunch of lawyers running around using ChatGPT, and I think this might be,
um,
you know, this could illustrate for, for listeners or
other, um,
you know, business owners who are thinking about the investment that it might
take to
develop a strategy for AI, you know, implementation and use.
But can, can you give our listeners a sense of the infrastructure that we as a business or company have sort of [00:17:00] built around, uh, to, to
try
to, um, develop and then implement a strategy? So sure. I mean, it, it starts with just, you know, taking that survey, taking the, the results of asking the question,
what
services or softwares are your users using?
And for our-- I think in our particular application, we had a number, um, and then reviewing those, analyzing those, seeing what's the pros and cons of each one of those services are, and then making a thoughtful decision based on your industry, right? Do you need drafting support? And this is a tool, not a replacement.
Do you need, you know, manufacturing support? Do you need, you know, maybe math support if you're an accounting firm? You know, w- which one of these tools provides those services, and doing that thoughtfully And then once you're setting up an account and have the account enterprise or otherwise set up, you know, making sure your users are adopting it, making sure your users are going through the right account to keep that confidentiality and all the other obligations
there,
but then just keeping up with the education.
Having, having, you [00:18:00] know, w- again, to use our example, we, we started having weekly breakfast sessions every Friday in our firm where, you know, we would talk about different uses, different applications of AI. And, you know, Tony Rupp would lead a breakfast session about,
you
know, whatever version he was using.
I led one
about
prompting because it's amazing
how
much better a result you can get from a thoughtful prompt
and
just trying to make sure everyone out there is using this and exercising their thoughtful muscles when they're trying to, to, to use these tools versus just, oh, throwing information in and seeing what happens because that's where you start getting, you know, shotgun answers because you're putting a shotgun
approach
in, and that's not very strategic.
So making sure that in addition to adoption,
in
addition to, you know, doing the foundational security elements, you're educating your people on how to use it correctly so that they can actually get some useful results. And, and the individuals, it's, it's not... It, it's lawyer driven. There's IT support, but I, I
also, um,
you know, would love to know both of your perspectives, maybe Matt yours, [00:19:00] on, uh, sort of like engineer support or, or does every business...
You know, is it, is it going above and beyond to think that maybe you need other third parties that are not directly involved in your manufacturing company or
professional
services firm? Or h-how, how did the two of
you,
as sort of leaders
of
this
task force
and, and practice group think about what other people might be necessary in order to give us the best shot at implementation or success?
Yeah, I mean, it all started
with, um,
you know, being intentional in forming this AI task force and getting people from all levels of the firm in the same room to
meet
regularly with effectively what were brainstorming sessions to ask the right probing questions about where we could identify needs. And eventually, that evolved into, you know, the thought process that, look, well, there is lots of, of, um, uh, uh, big ticket, uh, third-party products and platforms that are out there that, that have, you know,
incredible
capabilities.
And, and we could [00:20:00] buy up licenses and have, uh, have those platforms, as many of them as we want, available to us to do what we initially thought it could do, um, for
us and,
and for our
clients.
But that conversation evolved over time and opportunities presented themselves. Well, look, we can use the, the, the basic technology that, that ChatGPT, for example, uses, um, and, but we can customize it to ourselves.
We can create, if we have the right people, opportunities to even greater streamline, to greater automate without the elimination of employees. Um, simple tasks that are available or that are necessary at our firm, whether it's in accounting, whether it's something to make a paralegal's job more efficient and, and, uh, make them, uh, more valuable with their time.
Um, whether it's something to do an analysis of, uh, you know, uh, I don't know, some company's records, right? To, to, to ultimately give you a, a summary, um, and then you can take it from there We identified that as an [00:21:00] opportunity that was available f-to us to do something different. Uh, going back to when you and Tony founded the firm, I mean, you guys founded this firm to think differently, to practice law in a way that most law firms never would try, right?
And so it was kinda emblematic of that thought process, that mantra that, all right, look, if we're gonna do this, let's go all in, right? Let's be intentional, let's be str-strategic. Let's in- let's invest in ourselves and be able to create tools with... by employing people who have
a similar
mindset but have the
skill
set to be able to do that, and take requests from our lawyers, from our paralegals, from our COO to create proprietary softwares and, and programs in-house that can then help us be more efficient and effective, and ultimately deliver that to our clients.
So it was, um, it was a big jump, it was a big leap to go as a law firm out in the marketplace and hire data engineers, multiple of them, not just one. Um, and I think so far, it's working with flying colors. It's been outstanding. It's great to have them as, as a resource. They're in [00:22:00] every, uh, AI task force meeting.
They're available to talk about if you have an idea for something, to come and explain it to them. Their brains might work a little
differently
than ours do. Um, and those conversations are awesome. They're super rewarding, and then to see it come to fruition after a few weeks of coding and working with it really is incredible.
Um, I, I can't wait to see what's next. Te-tell me,
has
that, um, transformative, um, investment in, in people
that have,
you know, sort of experience with, you know, software, um, you know, implementation and development and, like, w-where does the ROI come in? Or where does the, where does the client get to see, um, value or, or ch- you know, change in the traditional approach to the practice of law?
So I'm, I'm sure we've got a, you know, a million clients listening as well saying, "This is all well and good, but how does this investment that the firm is making in AI translate into fill in the blank service, uh, value for a client?" But
have,
have, are, [00:23:00] are we far enough along in the process to know the outcome, the, the output for, for our clients or, or clients in general?
I, I think you have to
inve- invest
in it and just, you know, have some faith in it,
Dave. I, I'm gonna
repeat a phrase that you use all the time just when speaking to the firm, right? You know, what's the highest and best
use of
your time? So I think, you know, we, maybe we don't have a, a direct proportional ROI yet, but, you know, we are trying to find the highest and best use of every single employee's time, whether it's the managing partner down to the receptionist or the file room clerk.
You know, are there processes that you do on a day-to-day basis that can be automated or can be automated at least in part? You know, w- we've had a couple
of,
of, you know, document request softwares that have, you know, come up through these, these brainstorming sessions as Matt's talking about, whether it's subpoena generation, whether it's doc- document request generation.
And, uh, what they do is they let people that are either on non-billable tasks or on, you know, flat fee tasks all of a sudden become more efficient. So that is a higher and better use of their time because they [00:24:00] now have more time.
100%.
So I, I think it's a little bit of a, a, a tough question to answer. Everyone always wants ROIs, right?
You know, I, I've got some private equity clients, they always talk, you know, "I've got, you know, so this three-year horizon, five-year horizon." And I think that's not necessarily the best way to look at this. It's saying, well, how, are we making our processes more
efficient?
Are we freeing up, you know, employee X or employee Y to be an even better employee versus, you know, do we have a 2% higher margin?
Because I don't really know how you would measure that if it's someone that's not already capturing their time. So I, we as a firm have made the intentional choice to really invest
in that and, and, and
take the conscious decision that, hey, maybe
there
isn't a direct measurable ROI here, but maybe it's measured through higher productivity, maybe it's measured through higher gross revenue from that, whether it's a practice group specific or the firm at large, and I think those dividends are gonna start paying off
in
the, in the future, and right now we're still in the investment Tell me as, as you, as you, you know, both of you are in the prime, um, stages of [00:25:00] your career obviously, and have fully embraced, uh, AI to make you and the firm by extension more efficient. But i-if you, if you think about five years from now, you know, what, what does a professional services firm look like? Are we, are we gonna scale down because of the efficiencies that, um, you're helping to create, or h-how do you both think
about,
you know, looking
into
the future and what a, a law firm, an
accounting
firm or, you know, another, um, similar type, uh, company might look as far as
its
infrastructure?
It's
a little scary, right? Like,
I didn't
see this- I'm really scared. I didn't see
this coming
five years ago,
right?
And so but here we are. And so, um, you know, one way that we're, uh, hoping to address what we're,
what it
is gonna look like in five years is by
doing
what we started doing two, three, four years
ago and
why we're
doing
what we're doing today.
So do
I
I think it's gonna replace lawyers and law firms? No, not in five years. Um, it's just gonna [00:26:00] change continually, and it's gonna continue to evolve the way that we do our jobs, the way that we deliver services to our clients, and it's not unique to law firms. Yeah. This is businesses across the landscape,
right?
And so I keep hearkening back to, um, you
know,
the
intentional
strategic decision
that
we made because diving
in
headfirst to a pool of AI without really
understanding
what it is and what it can do for your business or any business really And applying it without kind of planning out or, or hoping to have a, a certain path of development and, uh, a certain output or outcome is, it can be dangerous, right?
Because if you don't have the right processes, the right protocols, the right checks and balances in place when you apply to AI, y- you can scale your business, but you also scale any problems that can come along with it. Like, you can create unintended consequences if you, if you're not intentional and careful about it.
Um, you know, lawyers are typically, you know, the, probably one of the least risky professions that are out
there.
but, [00:27:00] um, I don't necessarily see AI as a risk. Are there risks that come with it, with the AI itself? Sure. Um, but they can all be addressed if done carefully. Um, and so, um, in five years from now, I, I think, you know, the legal profession is gonna continue to change.
Um, I think judges and, and courts are begi- gonna become more open-minded to the use of AI in legal drafting. Um, there, you see these crazy decisions that come out, you know, every couple months about a lawyer submitting something when they haven't, uh, checked the citations that, that come out with the AI.
But, um- You know, I, I think it, it is gonna change dramatically. It, it
has
in just the last few years. It does literally by
the day.
I mean, so if,
if you
stick your
head
in the sand and think it's not gonna
dramatically
affect your business, whatever industry you might be in, um, over the next five years, then I think you need to look yourself, look in the mirror and, and maybe think about it some more.
And I, I've, I would just couch that with, you know, technology's been coming for lawyers and professional services firms for generations, right? First it was [00:28:00] computers, right? That is, you know, mind-boggling. Tony Rupp
tells
stories of, of his first job as a law firm, didn't have a computer on his desk. Insane, right?
Goes back to a father, you know,
a,
a story my father tells me. My father ran a professional services firm. His,
his people
fought him
on
buying computers in the first place. And then
all of
of a sudden, emails, and then
automated
Westlaw, automated Nexus. I'm sorry, Lexis. Um,
everything's been coming
for every professional services firm for years, and so it's just evolving like, like we've done 10 times already, and you either have to evolve or die though.
So if you're, if you're gonna stick your head in the sand and not at least investigate this, not figure out a strategic plan for yourself, it... There might be some dire consequences, whether it's a headcount reduction or otherwise. But, you know, it's an exciting opportunity here, just like emails and online West- Westlaw research should have been exciting at some point in time for young lawyers, and I think that's the kind of the spirit and mentality of our firm of
saying,
"Great, there's some new challenge for us.
Let's go conquer it,"
versus,
you know, " Woe is me. What are we gonna do now? My ROI is going down." Do, do you both think that, [00:29:00] um, as far as recruiting, whether it's in professional services firms or, you know, businesses in general, that the profile of sort of this next gen of lawyer, of accountant, of banker,
of
business executive will look very different based on what the two of you may think are skills that you're gonna wanna see in that next gen?
And
if
so, what, you know, what will you be looking for when you're out there, you know, meeting with, with law students or, um, you know, support staffers that you think might be able to help us
in the future?
Yeah, I, I think at least for me personally, I think both Matt and I had a little bit of work experience before I went to law school.
I only worked for one year. Matt worked for a little bit longer. But I, I feel like
that's
going to be something that will actually be even more attractive than it already is right now because it demonstrates that individual has a little bit more thoughtfulness, that they're not just on a, you know, K to 12 and keep going program.
Nothing wrong with that. A lot of brilliant lawyers have, have left the academic career before they start practicing. But I do think a little [00:30:00] bit
of
real word- world experience, a little bit of, you know, thoughtfulness and, "Hey, I wanna go back to law school and
do
something with my degree," would show at least to
me
that, hey, this person can think,
right?
You know, AI can generate the documents for them, but does this person have some level of judgment, some level of independency
here that
maybe would make them a more attractive candidate than someone who hasn't had that opportunity? Yeah, and, and, um, look, it's scary. As, as somebody who practices labor and employment law, I'm seeing, you know, this with clients on a day-to-day basis, but I'm seeing it in my personal life.
Like, our kids who are in middle school or, or, or early in high school, this is available to them. It's-
Mm.
you ha- the conversation has to start early. It's a different generation. It's a different economy. It's a different generation of people that are growing up through
their, uh,
their young lives and developing, whether it's middle school,
high
school, the way that they think, the way they speak, the way they write.
Um, and
so you gotta be
thoughtful
about questions you're asking people in interviews, writing samples that you're re- that you're reading or,
or
the way you're evaluating applicants for [00:31:00] positions. Um, you know, depending on the size of a company, there are many third-party tools and companies that can, that they use AI to automatically screen applicants.
It's a big, uh, it's a big to-do in the labor and employment world, but, um, sitting down with somebody and looking them in the eye, you know, there's a lot of non-verbal communication. There's a lot you can observe about somebody and, and, uh, evaluate other than just, you know, something that's written on the page or an email they write you.
And so, but going back, I, I think it's gonna be drastically different. With every passing year, our, our class of lawyers is a little bit different. Um, they've learned in a different way. Um, they've developed in a different way than we have. And even, you know, seven, 10 years from now when my kid's entering the workforce, it's gonna be drastically different than it is today.
So, um, I do think it's gonna be a different class of, of young professionals growing up, no matter the industry they go into, and, um, we'll see how that changes. Uh, sort of as, as we begin to wind down here, two or three practical pieces of [00:32:00] advice for our listeners. You know, you guys are, for three years, have been fully immersed in this, and I think are, are, you know, armed and empowered to, to know what has worked, what has not worked, a lot of tests, a lot of failures, a lot of successes.
But, you know, if, if, if you're a business owner and you're running a small business here in Western New York, you know, what, what are one or two or two or three pieces of practical advice that you think those individuals should be thinking about? I'd say at
least
for right now, I'll give one and then I'll let Matt.
You know, AI, AI can give you an answer, at least today, right? You know, AI can give you an answer. It can't give you accountability, and I don't mean to your lawyer, I mean to your controller, right? To whatever role it is who's using AI. Does the person who generated that output understand
what
it is? Are they doing it thoughtfully?
Are, hallucinations or otherwise, but, you know, garbage in, garbage out. You need to make sure that you're not just looking for words on a paper to, to tick, tick a box, but actually
understanding
what those words mean, both for the particular question and for your business at [00:33:00] large. Like, that's the one- That's good advice
piece of advice I would have. Sorry to jump in on you, Matt. No, not at all. Um, I, I love that.
And
for me, it's, um, it's kind of like prompt engineering. So it's, it's... That, that's a buzzword or buzz phrase, but it's as good- is what you put into it. So, um, be thoughtful and be, uh, be intentional about the way that you put prompts into AI no matter what platform it is that you're using.
Um, think through
not only what,
like,
with the output in mind, but think through the words that you use, the phrasing that
you
use. Give it everything. It will
digest
it. It will decipher what's most important. Um, and the more you
give
it, not
just
in one
prompt,
like literal conversations over a period of time over and over and over again, um, that is where my greatest investment I think has shown the
best
results because learning how to properly prompt an AI, uh, tool, um, has really improved my ability to be the most efficient with my time.
That's, that's one of the biggest things to me. And I, just to piggyback off that, you [00:34:00] know, have a conversation with ChatGPT. I realize
you're
talking to a box, but you know, just read
the
output it generates. If it's wrong, tell
it
it's wrong. You know, I,
I
have this all the time. I'm sure some of my conversations would be a little-
would be fun to read. You know,
I, I
yell at it, be like, "This, you, you're missing the point of this prompt." Going back to Matt's point, that's probably a bad prompt on my part,
but,
you know, having the conversation, the back and forth with it as a tool, right? Really refine the output you're trying to
generate.
Understand the
output you're trying to generate, and you know, maybe it takes three,
four, 10 incan-
incantations of that to actually get it
correct,
but don't just take the first output as gospel.
You know, like,
actually look at it, you know, make this, make this a tool that's useful for you, not just a tool that, you know, moves the ball, uh, seemingly forward. That's great. That's great. Well, look, I'll, I'll let you guys go in a sec here, but I, I can't let you go without, I always play a little game of little-known facts about, uh, my guests, and I, I could start with some little-known facts.
You're both, you know, great athletes
in
college, high school and
college,
and both have [00:35:00] two amazing children. But give
our,
give our listeners something
else
besides those little-known facts. Matt, maybe I'll start
with
you. Oh my gosh, this is embarrassing. On the spot too. That's, uh- That's the tough part. I once drove- Thanks for the heads-up. Uh,
I'll,
this is a funny one, and it's the first one that came to mind 'cause I tell the story all the
time.
But I
once
drove my Jeep into Lake Erie- That's good ... for 13 hours and kept, kept the engine running.
And it's
a- How does that work? ... not
a wise
decision on my part back in the day, uh, many, many years ago, but something that, uh, that I remembered, so, um- I love it.
That's a good one actually. A little-known fact about me- Uh, I'm the proud B flight champion at the Country Club of Buffalo Golf Tournament That's a good one That's, uh, I don't know if that's necessarily a fun fact or not. Um- I know you've got some great- But- ... uh, lineage in your family, Ben. Your mom might be a leader.
Oh, yeah, that's... That-
Dave,
thanks for that prompt. That's a little more embarrassing. So I, I am the proud son of the president of the Poodle Club of America. One of my pro bono clients, and I can guarantee you none of them are [00:36:00] listening- ... but that's all right. Uh, there's only about 200 members. To be in the Poodle Club of America, you have to have shown and finished five champion dogs.
My parents had a, a entrant who didn't do well, unfortunately, this year in, uh, the, the, the big, um, dog show in New York at the... So they went. You know, it's, it's a great... God bless my mother, she's very into dogs. Amazing. So I grew up with anywhere from about 7 to 15 dogs in the house. Amazing. Um, miniature poodles- Amazing
which was, which was fun. Amazing. Well, look, guys, I, I can't begin to thank you enough. I know you got a ton of stuff going
on,
uh, personally and professionally, and so to spend an hour with me is, is so appreciated. So thanks again. Um, look forward to seeing you back at the office soon. Thanks, David. Yeah, thanks, David.